| Pages: 1 2 3 |
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
![[*]](./images/corporate/default_icon.gif) posted on 2-27-2008 at 10:09 AM |
|
|
Oil Leak Remedies (Clueless)
Salud, Cubsters:
In hopes of weather warm enough to promote wrenching arriving soon, I'm prepping for an expedition into the interior of my '58 ('59?) T20C,
acquired last autumn. The bike runs like a top, but a very leaky top: perhaps 1 qt/liter per 100 miles or even worse. And no, it's not burning it:
it's mostly coming out the kickstart shaft and other r.h.- case escape routes. I'm a fairly intrepid backyard mechanic (mostly airhead BMWs), but
haven't a clue when it comes to Cubs; hope you can start me in the right direction, with some tips as to r & r techniques. If this is a familiar
scenario, perhaps you can advise what parts to lay in ahead of time, etc.
Anyway, a few data points: I've been using 50w (Penzoil), but did run 1/2q or so 20/50 thru it early on out of necessity (bad idea, I know); the bike
sumps quickly on most stops (a look at the balls'n'springs is on the docket); she does not smoke, starts easily, and runs great w/ plenty of power
(well, relatively speaking -- it's a Cub -- but she hauls my 175...err...185 lbs. up hill and down dale cheerfully enough, only occasionally
demanding 2nd gear :> ; there's no obvious noises other than the usual
clatter, which sounds okay to my admittedly inexperienced ear.
But I want to reduce the leakage to more tolerable levels (I don't expect dry!). Anybody (or all) BTDT? What should I be on the lookout for? Any
gotcha's to keep in mind?
Many thanks in advance.
---Danny (NH) -- where there's still nearly 4 ft. of snow on the ground...! |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-27-2008 at 11:22 AM |
|
|
1 litre / 100 miles is a mega leak if it is not burning! If it is coming out of timing side engine covers, I would take them both off , check , clean
and reassemble them using SPARING AMOUNTS of silicone sealant. Whils't cases off you need to have a good look at oil pump installation/ condition of
all ball valves and springs to find out why it is wet sumping ---- I suspect you will find root cause of your problem there.
When you pull the inner case off be very careful!! The camshaft outer bush is in that case and there is a tendency for the shaft to be pulled out with
the cover and if this happens, the tappets disengage from the cams, the pushrods drop off the rockers and it is cylinder head off to re engage
everything!!! Trick is to get an assistant to push inward on the end of camshaft with screwdriver to hold it in position whils't you ease inner case
off. Been there, done that!
You will need a new oil pump gasket, felt seal for the gear lever shaft, and there is also a small cork gasket on the tin cover that you need to
remove to disengage gear quadrant pivot pin. Strongly suggest you get a Haynes manual before you tackle this. |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-28-2008 at 07:15 AM |
|
|
Many thanks, Chris. That's pretty much what I had in mind -- I have Clymer's in hand and plenty of Yamabond on the shelf, <g> so just need to
round up the right-side gaskets, and some decent weather.
I gather wet-sumping is not necessarily endemic?
Thanks again; ride safe.
---DK |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-28-2008 at 07:40 AM |
|
|
Danny,
As far as I know, the cub is not very prone to wet sumping with its positive displacement piston oil pump but, leaks past ball valves or pump mounting
gasket could I suspect allow oil to seep under gravity from tank to "sump" and casings from where it could be blown out by crankcase pressure.I
think Haynes manual suggests that ball valve sealing can be improved by placing the steel ball on seating then giving it a sharp blow with hammer.
Regarding sealing of the two right hand cases, Triumph only fitted a gasket [paper] on the outer case joint. Personally, I dont use a gasket there ---
I find modern sealants on their own do a good job. When sealing the inner cover to the crankcase, go easy with the sealant --- when tightening up the
case , excess sealant can be extruded into the oil pump housing areas and could pose problems if it blocks any oilways.
Good luck and when you have sorted it out please post the answer so that we all learn! |
|
|
connell1975
Posting Freak
Posts: 760
Registered: 1-18-2008
Location: winchburgh, scotland
Member Is Online
Mood: always happy
|
| posted on 2-28-2008 at 01:56 PM |
|
|
Hi danny
When you find out the problem will you let me Know. I have the same problem with my trials cub and from time to time the outer case seems to fill
with oil and then comes out the kick start shaft. I have changed the pump and that hasnt made much of a difference.
regards scott. |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-29-2008 at 06:25 AM |
|
|
Will do (_if_ I can identify the problem!).
While I'm thinking of it, is there any sort of a crankcase breather on the Cub engine? Maybe I'm missing something?
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-29-2008 at 10:03 AM |
|
|
danny / scott,
Have a read of "The Triumph Tiger Cub Bible" Section 3.10 page 30. Section is headed "Problem Areas -"wet Sumping" and describes oil being blown
out of case joints and breather at back of crankcase. Too much to repeat here but basically down to poor scavenging of sump due to dirt or wear in the
scavenge side of pump or problems with design of scavenge pipe in sump.
May be worth you contacting Mike Estall the author of the bible. |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-29-2008 at 10:13 AM |
|
|
Good advice; thanks. Where is the breather-tube he refers to? I'm not seeing it...?
---DK |
|
|
Raggles39
Posting Freak
Posts: 1158
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Greenock Scotland
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-29-2008 at 12:22 PM |
|
|
Hi Danny-NH - Check under Mechanical Help Needed - 'Hole in Crankcase' 12.30.2007 re breather & tube
Jim |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 2-29-2008 at 07:11 PM |
|
|
Aha! Mystery solved. Thanks, Raggles.
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-6-2008 at 01:39 PM |
|
|
Clueless oil-leak update:
I think I may have found my problem...well, my Cub's problem...well, one of them, anyway. On removing the timing-side outer cover I discovered... no
felt seal in place on the gear-change shaft; nothing, nada, zippo. (There was also no spring in the sump-screen assy.) At this point, I'm inclined to
leave the inner cover in place, since there's no sign of leakage along its joint -- I'm theorizing that most of my leakage is coming via the
gear-change shaft, filling up the outer cover and oozing out its seam and orifices. Thus, when my parts come from Greystone (may it be soon!), I would
put the felt seal (and screen-spring) in place, renew all possible fibre washers, and button her up.
What saith the council? Are there any seals INSIDE of the inner cover that I should check/change while I'm at it?
Another thing: the gear-change shaft has about 0.3 mm end-play; my common sense tells me this is probably fine...yes?
TIA. ---Danny (NH) |
|
|
connell1975
Posting Freak
Posts: 760
Registered: 1-18-2008
Location: winchburgh, scotland
Member Is Online
Mood: always happy
|
| posted on 3-6-2008 at 02:39 PM |
|
|
Hi danny
I was thinking the other night and remembered that my roadster was wet sumping but it was not as bad as leaking from the side casing. I changed the
pump from a brass bodied pump to a cast pump and that cured the problem. If i have time at the weekend i will change the pump as i do have a spare
pump. If this works i will post i will let you know. The end play on the shaft will probably be taken up with the felt seal.
best regards scott. |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-7-2008 at 07:43 AM |
|
|
Danny,
I think you may be clutching at straws re the felt seal on gearchange shaft. Certainly the seal should be fitted but it is not a pressure seal to hold
back large amounts of oil. It is more like a soak up pad for minor weeps.
You originally reported oil loss rate as 1 litre per 100 miles and that must be due to something more sinister than a missing felt seal.
I don't know the purpose of the spring on the sump filter plate [you must have an early engine pre serial number 57616] but at least that is in the
oil scavenge system. If you remove the sump filter cover after a long run is a large amount of oil released? --- should only be small amount.
I still suspect that you have a wet sump problem due to pump / scavenge issue. If you remove the oil tank cap with the engine running, can you see a
steady flow of oil returning into the tank via the anti frothing tower near top of tank? |
|
|
Raggles39
Posting Freak
Posts: 1158
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Greenock Scotland
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-7-2008 at 12:12 PM |
|
|
Hi Danny - I would agree with Chris - definitely sounds like a pump problem you have.
Scott also mentioned the cast type oil pump which is far superior to the older brass types and well worth considering as a replacement for your
existing pump - if you stick with your existing brass pump it would be advisable to change the 4 x springs and the 2 x steel balls ensuring that the
balls are seating correctly - check Haynes Manual
Jim |
|
|
connell1975
Posting Freak
Posts: 760
Registered: 1-18-2008
Location: winchburgh, scotland
Member Is Online
Mood: always happy
|
| posted on 3-7-2008 at 02:52 PM |
|
|
Hi danny
If you buy new springs watch the length of the springs. I bought new srings from a supplier and put them in the pump and the non return valves but
actully made the problem worse as they were a fraction shorter than the originals. There was a bit of bad language when i checked old against the new
and relised they were shorter as i thought they had just lost there strength with age .
best regards scott. |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-8-2008 at 08:12 AM |
|
|
Thanks, Gents (Chris, Scott, Jim). Points well taken. As I understand things, my 58/59 T20CA should be the brass-body pump; I gather the cast-iron
version is preferrable, but is NLA? What about the larger-bore brass pumps; any improvement?
Okay, oil pumps aside, my order is in to Greystone, so next break in the weather I'm goin' in there (inner t.s. cover). Covering fire, please!
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-14-2008 at 12:38 PM |
|
|
Update -- I'm in!
I got the inner cover off w/ no particular problem, keeping cam in place by pushing on stub w/ thumb while pulling off cover. (Hope I can get all the
shifter bitslined back up for reassy., but that's in the future.) Removed oil pump, also no prob.
Here's what I found: Pump is cast-iron, w/ 3/8 -- 5/16 bores (despite it being a T20C engine from 58/59); this is a good thing, right? The balls
& springs are in place in the pump, free to move, and look fine to my untutored eye.
I also the "auxiliary" balls & springs when I removed the pump, which also looked fine EXCEPT that one spring -- I'm pretty sure it was the
feed -- is deformed a bit on one end, as if it was hung up/cocked on previous assy., POSSIBLY restricting its ball from seating properly in the pump
flange. So I'm thinking that MAYBE this was the root of my problem...possible? (I also found no lockwasher on one pump-fixing bolt and it only
slightly better than finger-tight, but I doubt that's a contributor.)
OK, so I'm inclined to replace the aux. springs, but leave the pump alone. (Does this sound OK, or should I strip and clean the pump parts?) Does
anyone know where I can get the proper springs easily/quickly in the USA? (url or phone # would be great.)
And finally, any tips for getting the aux springs+balls back together while replacing the pump (engine still in frame, hence vertical)? I've though
of the classic dab of grease to hold the balls in the seats, but wonder if that's asking for trouble. Is there a Cub-approved method here? Finally,
are the springs reversable end-to-end? I assume so, in which case I could re-form my munged-up one's end, and turn it around, with the iffy end into
the case bore...? And while I'm asking, are the springs 2 aux. interchangable? Are they the same part(s) as the ones in the pump body?
Sorry for so many Q's, but many thanks in advance for the help.
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
connell1975
Posting Freak
Posts: 760
Registered: 1-18-2008
Location: winchburgh, scotland
Member Is Online
Mood: always happy
|
| posted on 3-14-2008 at 02:28 PM |
|
|
Hi danny
The pump springs and non return valve springs are the same length but the balls in the pump are diffrent sized to the non return valve. I cannot
remember which is the biggest. Greystone have new springs and balls I think they are about £6 if my memory serves me right. The best way i find on
replacing the balls is the classic spot of grease. I have never had any trouble that way. I would also say turning the springs so that ther good end
is out would be ok.
best regards scott. |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-15-2008 at 02:56 AM |
|
|
Hi Danny,
Looks as if you are making good steady progress.
I would certainly dismantle the oil pump and give it a thorough clean with solvent, check for any serious scoring of the pistons or bores and
excessively sloppy fit pistons and ensure no debris to impede valve seating. As it pumps oil I would not expect serious wear.
I don't think you mentioned if the gasket between the pump and crankcase was present ---- I think you should renew it [part number E3188].
I would renew all four pump valve springs [pt no E3191] and the steel balls if any signs of a wear line where they have been in contact with seating
[balls under removable caps are3/16" and behind pump body are 5/32"]
Haynes manual suggests placing ball on seating then using a small parallel punch and hammer to tap ball against the seat to ensure it conforms exactly
to ball profile.
Before refitting the inner cover, ensure that the selector fork spindle etc are fully engaged in opposite side casing [ tend to be dragged out wheninner cover removed]. After cleaning case joint faces BUT BEFORE APPLYING RTV sealant it is well worth having a couple of practice cover refits so
that you know what to align and "jiggle" to get it in place. Hold the camshaft each time you withdraw cover and when rehersals over, apply small
amount of sealant and refit.
I look forward to your next report!
Chris |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-15-2008 at 08:19 AM |
|
|
Thanks, Chris & Scott. I will hose down the pump, and look into replacement springs (the pump looks as-new). Greystone only shows one spring, part
number E4404 on their downloadable pricelist. What's the diff. between these and the E3191 springs? Is this the length diff. Scott referred to
earlier in this thread? Are the springs different for the early-brass/late-iron pumps? Has anyone measured free-lengths?
A lot of bother over some tiny little penny springs, but oil circulation is kinda important...:>.
Thanks again, guys.
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
Chris Foster
Posting Freak
Posts: 365
Registered: 11-7-2003
Location: Garstang, Lancashire, UK
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-15-2008 at 09:26 AM |
|
|
Hi danny,
I took spring part number E3191 from Triumph parts catalogue No 7 which covers my 1961 T20 and specifies the brass bodied pump with assembly number
E4208.
You will need to be careful when shopping because there were several standards of oil pump fitted to the cub over the years. Looking through my old
copy of Mike Estalls "parts & Services directory" the following standards appear but there is no mention of applicability / year:-
"Oil pump assembly -small brass type" pt no ????
" " " - large brass type pt no E4208
" " " - cast iron type pt no E 4402
" " " - slider block type pt no E 6486
I think your first move will probably be to find out just which standard is actually fitted to your engine [ remember that somebody may have fitted a later pump at some point]
Based on proximity of part numbers, I would guess that E4404 spring used on E4402 pump. I don't know if springs are interchangeable between pump
types.
May be worth talking to Adrian or Derek at Greystone and maybe email them a picture of your pump so they can identify what standard you have and
advise if they can supply springs. They are very experienced guys.
Getting a bit sticky isn't it ???!!! |
|
|
Warren Hile
Member
Posts: 31
Registered: 9-14-2006
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-15-2008 at 11:55 AM |
|
|
Hi All;
On the subject of oil pump springs, go to;
http://www.cubsite.com/cubforum/viewthread.php?tid=675
I had some similar issues.
WH |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-16-2008 at 07:27 AM |
|
|
Thanks Warren -- great info. And precisely what I found in my Cub's iron-pump setup: springs in the cast-iron pump measure 0.35 (11/32"?), but the
"aux" ones in the case bore measure 0.43-ish (7/16"?). All 4 springs are bang on 5/32" in dia. (0.156).
I think we need definitive word on #1): Does the cast-iron pump take the shorter springs internally? (I'm betting yes.) #2): Are the auxiliary
springs the longer, 7/16" springs fitted in ALL Cubs equipped with them? (I'm guessing yes again.) And #3): What are the definitive part nos. the
two items? (I believe them to be E3191 for the long spring, and E4404 for the short one.) I will send an email query to Greystone on these questions,
and report back what I learn. OTOH, if anybody already knows the "official" specs, chime in! Thanks again.
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
Danny-NH
Member
Posts: 26
Registered: 2-6-2008
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 3-21-2008 at 09:23 AM |
|
|
more on oil pump springs
Update: I got my springs + balls from Greystone (Fast! Thanks!!). The balls match what came out of the (cast iron) pump assy., as do the springs,
EXCEPTING the fact that all 4 are the same: 0.452 x 0.157 in. (7/16ths by 5/32, MOL). I'm going to try to contact them to confirm that these springs
are currently deemed correct for all 4 positions, i.e., 2 in the pump body, and 2 in the auxiliary check-valve positions in the bores between pump and
crankcase...unless anybody already has data on this?
I'm attaching a PDF of a little table of spring/pump dimensional data I've amassed so far. HTH.
---Danny (NH) |
|
|
connell1975
Posting Freak
Posts: 760
Registered: 1-18-2008
Location: winchburgh, scotland
Member Is Online
Mood: always happy
|
| posted on 3-29-2008 at 10:02 AM |
|
|
Hi danny
I have bought two sets of springs from greystone and both sets have been the same with the four springs being the same length.
thanks scott. |
|
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 |
